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Where's the money coming from?

IronBrain

Approved user
Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
2
I've been playing the game now for several weeks, and increasingly I question how the economic sources and sinks in this game are working.

Resource generating units/structures which cost exponentially more to upgrade, but produce more at a much smaller exponent—in fact nearly linearly. This leads to a huge investment dilemma, and a major drag to having fun. For example, I'm still in the classical age, and my Caravan are level 7 (I have to move on to the medieval age to progress to level 8). The next upgrade, when I can do it, will cost 120000 food, but will only produce 150 more gold/hr (870 +150), farms are very similar but with complementary resources. At that level of resource generation, it will take 33 days to pay back the cost of the upgrade. Going from 6 to 7 cost was 70000 food, and increased the gold produced was 130 (740+130=870). That investment will take 22 days to pay for itself. Since it's only taken a week to go from 5's to 7's, I am realizing that I'm throwing money at a losing investment. They'll never pay for themselves in any meaningful way in the time frame for it to matter. I'll be super bored of the game by the time they do if self-generating income were my only source. Based on what my caravans and farms generate alone, I'd expect that it would take 2-3 months to upgrade everything to upgrade between classical and medieval ages. Yawn.

Clearly the game is meant to encourage raiding, and it makes the game pretty fun. That's great from a micro-economic standpoint, but someone, somewhere has to have generated those resources. And that's where I'm stuck. If resource generating units are so slow to repay investment let alone provide an economic boost (and grow slower at every upgrade), how is enough capital generated to drive the game economy forward so that people have fun playing it beyond early mid-game?

Theory for capitalization: In game purchase: Real life capital is exchanged for resources. Good theory and ideally what the game developers are after clearly, but the cost of resources in real dollars is also pretty steep. Current exchange is in the neighborhood of 1150 gold-food /crown, and crown/$ is around 120, so around $0.73/100kR. Supposing that the average player is spending $10 a month playing the game—that is only around 1.35M resources generated per person per month, or around 50k per day. That doesn't pay for much once beyond early classical age, and with cost growing exponentially, it's probably a total drop in the bucket in the Enlightenment Age, which would be a total turn off to most players. Even at $10/month I'd still be moving from classical to medieval ages in 1-2 months with my back-of-the envelope calculations.

If in-game purchase is the main source for resources (and there were no other external sources), it would probably weaken the gaming economy beyond the medieval ages at present prices, as there wouldn't be enough money generated by players. It would also create an environment where the progress is tied closely to the ability to pay. Rich players would become so much better than the normal paying or non-paying players that the game would become inherently classist. No one likes feeling like they have to pay absurd amounts to be competitive. IMO, in game purchase should be a time saver and a lubricant for progress, but not the source, and certainly not the means of competitiveness. Cost of resources to be purchased with in real money should be based on that nations ability to self-generate (i.e. crowns should be worth a fixed unit of time, not a fixed unit of resource value). Make $20 worth as much progress to a Iron Age nation as a Enlightenment Age nation in terms of time-saved.

Theory for capitalization: Zombies: The game generates new players who create kingdoms, build to a point, loose interest and leave. Their kingdoms are zombies, and generate income but stop consuming. I know I've run into a few kingdoms of this type when I raid and find no resources in markets and mills, but only in caravans, farms, and town centers. Still, for this to be economically viable as a source, they'd have to out-number active players significantly (like 10:1), and they'd have to be around for a long time to provide a real source (since to generate capital, an initial investment in infrastructure was still required). There may be some of this going on. It would be a bad sign for developers if it is proliferate though, as retention is key to monetization with the in-game purchase model. It's also not fun, IMO to constantly be battling zombies--they're totally asocial. I'd encourage Nexon to kill zombies (just remove them from the battle queue/league/standings/etc. after going inactive for some duration) for both these reasons--that they provide money to the game without sinking any and they're generally no fun to play against. It would be much more fun to make every player self-generate more resources than rely on zombie money. Fortunately, I don't seem to run into too many of these. Not enough to fund my economy, anyways.

​Theory for capitalization: Attacking is its own reward: It's could be possible that the resources I get from a raid is more than I actually take from the people I attack. This would be a reasonable source of income, and a fun one at that, but given the amounts I'm getting compared to where kingdoms are in they’re in their development, I don't think this is being used as a source of cash, or it’s a small percentage boost at most.

Theory for capitalization: Cheating: There are multiple claims on various websites for hacking programs which claim to be able to arbitrarily add gold/food/crowns. I'm not one to cheat, and so I don't know of their efficacy (could just be a rouse to have you install malware), but this could explain the continued growth of empires at the upper echelon. I think to some degree this must be what is going on--there must be enough counterfeit money out there to substantially fund the rest of the game. This is my conjecture at least.

I'm having fun raiding at the moment, but I see that there is really no way to support the game that currently exists without large amounts of capital that must be coming from somewhere. I'm also continually disappointed by the lack of reward for economic upgrades, rewards for single player campaigns, rewards from league membership, cost of relatively marginal upgrades, etc. I don’t see this as a sustainable endeavor.

If cheating is the main source of capital (and it appears that it could be), then the game is a waste of time for the honest. Games can only remain fun if there are rules to which everyone is subject. For all I know, the absurdly growing cost of upgrades, and diminutive rewards elsewhere are the developers’ means of reigning in the market capitalization. If so, I hope that they fix it soon, as this is a Band-Aid, and a poor one at that. I would strongly suggest that the developers look at the global sources and sinks of money, and find a way to make self-generating cash-flows at least semi-viable for funding growth, eliminate cheating (particularly counterfeit money), and let the rewarding game mechanics shine in a way that everyone stays active and sees the benefit to throwing in more hard cash from time to time to speed up things a little.
 

hassle4

Approved user
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
9
Excellent points. I'd like to add a few more, as I've been playing since December and just moved to Enlightenment Age.

Firstly, the %loot able to be stolen from storages at around 22% and does not go down as you advance age. (although the loot cap increases) This allows active players to fill their storages faster.

Secondly the pathetic 4 hour shields and no bonus for winning. What this means is that an attacker can destroy your village up to 49%, take 22% of your storages, leave and then you won't get a shield, so another attacker can do the same all over again! And when someone does destroy your town centre, you get a small 4hour shield, or a 8hour shield if they destroy 50%. This means that there are more villages to attack 'on the market'

Unfortunately the game is not friendly to casual players who can't attack often or stay online for long periods of time. In any age, you have to attack multiple times in a row and stay online for you to upgrade or progress in this game. If you have more than a decent amount of loot, you will be attacked multiple times within 5 minutes of your phone 'sleeping'...therefore undoing any progress you made.

As farms and caravan upgrades are relatively cheap in comparison to defences etc, casual players upgrade them first to a high level...then give up the game, leading to more 'zombie villages' for other more active players to raid.

Yes, the economy is not in a good place at the moment, but I expect clash of clans had these problems during their release too.
 

Vasheir

Approved user
Joined
Apr 9, 2015
Messages
57
Unfortunately the game is not friendly to casual players who can't attack often or stay online for long periods of time..

Every mobile game is built like this. Don't expect anything more grandeur from a free app with in app purchases.
 

woolybugger

Banned
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
141
Farm/Caravan upgrade paying for itself in 1 month is actually a very good bargain. What happens after 1 month? Free! And you're probably going to play for many many months.

Also, the game gives you free loot from hunting, picking fruit, trading, ruins, joining a league, etc.....
Developers are free to inject loot into the economy anytime they want.
They keep a close eye on what's going on and will adjust the economy as needed.
When people start accumulating more, there'll also be more to go around.
As some have said, raiding is the way to go.
 

Isekai

Approved user
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
35
Here is the problem with resource generators;

Level 4 to 5 increases income by 130
Level 5 to 6 increases income by 130
Level 6 to 7 increases income by 130

Level 4 to 5 costs 10k and takes 8h
Level 5 to 6 costs 30k and takes 12h
Level 6 to 7 costs 70k and takes 16h

I don't know if it's just me but shouldn't LARGER investments and LONGER upgrade times reward an INCREASED benefit from the previous CHEAPER upgrades?
 
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Barathor

Approved user
Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
14
I've been playing the game now for several weeks, and increasingly I question how the economic sources and sinks in this game are working.

Resource generating units/structures which cost exponentially more to upgrade, but produce more at a much smaller exponent—in fact nearly linearly. This leads to a huge investment dilemma, and a major drag to having fun. For example, I'm still in the classical age, and my Caravan are level 7 (I have to move on to the medieval age to progress to level 8). The next upgrade, when I can do it, will cost 120000 food, but will only produce 150 more gold/hr (870 +150), farms are very similar but with complementary resources. At that level of resource generation, it will take 33 days to pay back the cost of the upgrade. Going from 6 to 7 cost was 70000 food, and increased the gold produced was 130 (740+130=870). That investment will take 22 days to pay for itself. Since it's only taken a week to go from 5's to 7's, I am realizing that I'm throwing money at a losing investment. They'll never pay for themselves in any meaningful way in the time frame for it to matter. I'll be super bored of the game by the time they do if self-generating income were my only source. Based on what my caravans and farms generate alone, I'd expect that it would take 2-3 months to upgrade everything to upgrade between classical and medieval ages. Yawn.

Clearly the game is meant to encourage raiding, and it makes the game pretty fun. That's great from a micro-economic standpoint, but someone, somewhere has to have generated those resources. And that's where I'm stuck. If resource generating units are so slow to repay investment let alone provide an economic boost (and grow slower at every upgrade), how is enough capital generated to drive the game economy forward so that people have fun playing it beyond early mid-game?

Theory for capitalization: In game purchase: Real life capital is exchanged for resources. Good theory and ideally what the game developers are after clearly, but the cost of resources in real dollars is also pretty steep. Current exchange is in the neighborhood of 1150 gold-food /crown, and crown/$ is around 120, so around $0.73/100kR. Supposing that the average player is spending $10 a month playing the game—that is only around 1.35M resources generated per person per month, or around 50k per day. That doesn't pay for much once beyond early classical age, and with cost growing exponentially, it's probably a total drop in the bucket in the Enlightenment Age, which would be a total turn off to most players. Even at $10/month I'd still be moving from classical to medieval ages in 1-2 months with my back-of-the envelope calculations.

If in-game purchase is the main source for resources (and there were no other external sources), it would probably weaken the gaming economy beyond the medieval ages at present prices, as there wouldn't be enough money generated by players. It would also create an environment where the progress is tied closely to the ability to pay. Rich players would become so much better than the normal paying or non-paying players that the game would become inherently classist. No one likes feeling like they have to pay absurd amounts to be competitive. IMO, in game purchase should be a time saver and a lubricant for progress, but not the source, and certainly not the means of competitiveness. Cost of resources to be purchased with in real money should be based on that nations ability to self-generate (i.e. crowns should be worth a fixed unit of time, not a fixed unit of resource value). Make $20 worth as much progress to a Iron Age nation as a Enlightenment Age nation in terms of time-saved.

Theory for capitalization: Zombies: The game generates new players who create kingdoms, build to a point, loose interest and leave. Their kingdoms are zombies, and generate income but stop consuming. I know I've run into a few kingdoms of this type when I raid and find no resources in markets and mills, but only in caravans, farms, and town centers. Still, for this to be economically viable as a source, they'd have to out-number active players significantly (like 10:1), and they'd have to be around for a long time to provide a real source (since to generate capital, an initial investment in infrastructure was still required). There may be some of this going on. It would be a bad sign for developers if it is proliferate though, as retention is key to monetization with the in-game purchase model. It's also not fun, IMO to constantly be battling zombies--they're totally asocial. I'd encourage Nexon to kill zombies (just remove them from the battle queue/league/standings/etc. after going inactive for some duration) for both these reasons--that they provide money to the game without sinking any and they're generally no fun to play against. It would be much more fun to make every player self-generate more resources than rely on zombie money. Fortunately, I don't seem to run into too many of these. Not enough to fund my economy, anyways.

​Theory for capitalization: Attacking is its own reward: It's could be possible that the resources I get from a raid is more than I actually take from the people I attack. This would be a reasonable source of income, and a fun one at that, but given the amounts I'm getting compared to where kingdoms are in they’re in their development, I don't think this is being used as a source of cash, or it’s a small percentage boost at most.

Theory for capitalization: Cheating: There are multiple claims on various websites for hacking programs which claim to be able to arbitrarily add gold/food/crowns. I'm not one to cheat, and so I don't know of their efficacy (could just be a rouse to have you install malware), but this could explain the continued growth of empires at the upper echelon. I think to some degree this must be what is going on--there must be enough counterfeit money out there to substantially fund the rest of the game. This is my conjecture at least.

I'm having fun raiding at the moment, but I see that there is really no way to support the game that currently exists without large amounts of capital that must be coming from somewhere. I'm also continually disappointed by the lack of reward for economic upgrades, rewards for single player campaigns, rewards from league membership, cost of relatively marginal upgrades, etc. I don’t see this as a sustainable endeavor.

If cheating is the main source of capital (and it appears that it could be), then the game is a waste of time for the honest. Games can only remain fun if there are rules to which everyone is subject. For all I know, the absurdly growing cost of upgrades, and diminutive rewards elsewhere are the developers’ means of reigning in the market capitalization. If so, I hope that they fix it soon, as this is a Band-Aid, and a poor one at that. I would strongly suggest that the developers look at the global sources and sinks of money, and find a way to make self-generating cash-flows at least semi-viable for funding growth, eliminate cheating (particularly counterfeit money), and let the rewarding game mechanics shine in a way that everyone stays active and sees the benefit to throwing in more hard cash from time to time to speed up things a little.


I'll just keep it simple and throw some points out:

1. It's worse; you're forgetting to factor in the time your "collectors" are inactive while upgrading. So your first example would actually take 38 days to pay for itself instead of only 33 (assuming food and gold are equal, which I like to just assume since they nearly are).

Indeed, they're mighty pricey. In Clash of Clans, for example, mines and collectors are much cheaper because that downtime is factored into the cost. Also, it seems like Clash's store more and have higher rates of production per hour (great for raiding what you refer to as zombie players).

​2. Of course the game is about raiding! : ) It's not Sim City or anything. Sure, there are players that like to simply turtle and build up their empire (very slowly...), but the action and focus of the game is in raiding; which, ironically, allows you to build up your empire much more rapidly than the passive turtles.

3. You're forgetting other sources of resources which constantly generate out of thin air and don't require an initial gold/food investment, here are some:
* Gathering from fruit trees and mines. (must be active, though)
* Hunting animals (must be active, but perhaps not as much as the gathering.)
* Raid bonus gold/food for destroying all types of each.
* Daily league rewards (though, very small)
* We British players create 5% extra gold/food out of thin air from raiding. ; )
* Investing trade goods into shipments (the free ones obtained from hunting and gathering)
* Daily wonder rewards (again, small)

Being active is profitable -- and should be.

This isn't even counting crown rewards obtained for free. Clearing trees and things rewards them too, for a cost, but it's probably well worth it.

4. Why remove "zombies"? They'll eventually sink down the leagues anyway as medals dwindle. What's the difference between raiding an abandoned zombie empire versus an active player's (besides unarmed traps, haha)? The way these types of games are setup is actually a great model, and even players that take a break or quit playing contribute to the game.

5. I really think there should be some type of additional bonus resources per raid dependent on destruction medals: 50%, 75% 100%. They would also scale by league. Right now, the daily league rewards are pitiful. Clash generates a lot of bonus resources per raid. (Though, at the same time, you can never save your army and always need to retrain whatever you use.)

With that, there would be lots of interesting goals to achieve while raiding: clear all defensive structures to save your army, try and clear all of one type of collector for the bonus, etc.


6. These types of games are meant as epic, long term ones which give players a greater sense of accomplishment (versus quick, easy ones) for reaching higher levels (easiest when focusing on yourself and not others who may purchase more crowns than you). That's why continuously chasing that carrot on the stick is so alluring. In your example, requiring 38 days (from just that single upgrade, and not compounding past ones) to get your resources back via the bonus amount alone isn't much.
 

Isekai

Approved user
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Messages
35
I'm with you on this Barathor I'm lv98 on clash and i enjoy being a beast for my level however the problem with this game is everything scales EXCEPT the farms and caravans as I posted above. I've seen people want reduced upgrade times I say throw more villagers out there for crowns, increase max cap to 20(+1) and i'd be more than satisfied. We need loot caravan and farm scaling damnit! and preferably more villagers :p
 

hassle4

Approved user
Joined
Feb 16, 2015
Messages
9
Every mobile game is built like this. Don't expect anything more grandeur from a free app with in app purchases.

I referring to, say you are 80% resource progress to your next upgrade after 3-5 attacks in a row, the last losing your entire army so you log off. Within 2 minutes of logging off you will be attacked twice (1st gets 49% and most of your loot, 2nd wipes you clean with 100%). Due to the loot % mechanics, that brings you back down to 50% of progress to your next upgrade as the % loot that can be stolen is so high

this will happen regardless whether your medal count is high or low. If it is low, weaker opponents will fail to get your loot and push your medal count back up high until someone trashes your base.
 
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Erebys

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Joined
Apr 17, 2015
Messages
2
Every mobile game is built like this. Don't expect anything more grandeur from a free app with in app purchases.


That may be true, but that doesn't make criticism of it's mechanics any less valid, and you know it.
 

IronBrain

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Joined
Apr 16, 2015
Messages
2
Farm/Caravan upgrade paying for itself in 1 month is actually a very good bargain. What happens after 1 month? Free! And you're probably going to play for many many months.


Free? I''m talking about the time value of those resources. That 120k now is worth much more to me today than 120k will be worth to me in 33 (correction 38, thanks Barathor!) days!

Listen, at 120k down and 150/hr it doesn't take much discounting for the net present value of that stream of income to effectively never pay off the initial investment. Let me explain. 120k at the moment I'm refering to (mid Classical Age) is worth 120k, but what is 120k worth to me 33 days? I'd probably be deep into the medieval age by then, and the impact that the 120k pays for becomes much smaller. In this game I'd venture that a fair discount rate is somewhere between 3-6% a day. In otherwords, that 120k today is worth the same to me as 124-127k tomorrow. Continue that for 38 days, and it would take between 370k to 1.1M to have the same impact depending on how quickly I progress. What is 3600/day from a caravan when that 120k wisely invested could be worth 370k of impact in 38 days, and 381k in 39 days (11k per day at that point and growing). This is what I mean by never pay itself back--it's only slowing my progress, not speeding it up. Net present value < 0 means you should spend your money somewhere else, the opportunity cost is too high.

Barathor said:
3. You're forgetting other sources of resources which constantly generate out of thin air and don't require an initial gold/food investment, here are some:
* Gathering from fruit trees and mines. (must be active, though)
* Hunting animals (must be active, but perhaps not as much as the gathering.)
* Raid bonus gold/food for destroying all types of each.
* Daily league rewards (though, very small)
* We British players create 5% extra gold/food out of thin air from raiding. ; )
* Investing trade goods into shipments (the free ones obtained from hunting and gathering)
* Daily wonder rewards (again, small)

Being active is profitable -- and should be.

This isn't even counting crown rewards obtained for free. Clearing trees and things rewards them too, for a cost, but it's probably well worth it.

Gathering doesn't scale. Amount per gathering goes up with progressing ages, but the minimum time between gatherings goes down. It's a small percentage of the overall flow of money in the game and decreasing with each age. It should be anyway or it's really anachronistic.
Hunting doesn't scale either. Spawn rates go way down at higher ages, as the benefit per hunt goes up.
Raid & League bonuses are fairly small compared to the loot gained by attacking, but you are right. This falls into the "Attacking is its own reward" category. 1000 bonus per raid vanishes pretty quick in importance. I'm probably spending >250k a day of both resources at this point. This can't be the main source of income into the economy, as there are many many players with higher level than I (around lvl 30). Even if you are so active that you play this game for 14 hrs a day and attack every 20 min, this would still only amount to 42k a day. League bonuses are even more pitiful.

My point isn't that they should make the game biased to turtles, nor that raiding isn't (or shouldn't) be the best way to get resources at least for players climbing the ladder. And I agree with activity should lend rewards (though I strongly feel that the rewards should be regressive, 8hrs of game play per day should be worth less than 2x what 4 hrs would be--this gives casual players at least some semblance of keeping up). My point is that the money has to come from somewhere ultimately, and I don't see where all of it could possibly come from. Somewhere resources are being generated and driving the developers to super-inflate costs & totally gimp self-generation to the point that it's a net money sink not a boost.

​It would be more fun if self-generation of resources was a more significant part of the game, IMO. Particularly later in the game. What good is an empire that can sustain itself except by pillaging?


 
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