Re-Rolling Artifacts
- Thread starter Alexey
- Start date
Nice post.
IMO Museum is like a lazy place to boosts your army / base without any
- more unique art (like armory),
- upgrade variant (like library),
- upgrade certainty (like university).
it was already seems like gambling machine to me.
(Even back then you can buy Museum Chest which might contain Fragments)
I think strategy is less usefull now that I dont know what my enemy had. And with the upgrade such as armory and library less dominant, I feel really empty when I try to upgrade.
Just more value differents. With the recent update rolling dyes and war artifacts, it makes even worse.
IMO Museum is like a lazy place to boosts your army / base without any
- more unique art (like armory),
- upgrade variant (like library),
- upgrade certainty (like university).
it was already seems like gambling machine to me.
(Even back then you can buy Museum Chest which might contain Fragments)
I think strategy is less usefull now that I dont know what my enemy had. And with the upgrade such as armory and library less dominant, I feel really empty when I try to upgrade.
Just more value differents. With the recent update rolling dyes and war artifacts, it makes even worse.
the serious ethical concern associating RNG with crowns
the ethical concern of associating crowns with the RNG is a blinking red light....
for example, i have a weapon with 4 lines of 'heavy cavalry' bonus ... it turns my french tanks into (sort of) heavy tanks.
on that one outlying line, i rolled once ... looking for tank/fighter/bazooka/guerilla, and got something else.
should i do it again? that associates money with the rng and a strong motivation, and my interest went in the trash.
i backed up a bit to reconsider what's going on....
people will certainly make mistakes with money, and that puts an odious smell in my game.
you can't say they are unaware ... the icon is a *die* ... the symbol of gambling.
they must have consulted legal counsel and are safe from further formal sanction (after previous fines)
... but we shall shame them for this.
the ethical concern of associating crowns with the RNG is a blinking red light....
for example, i have a weapon with 4 lines of 'heavy cavalry' bonus ... it turns my french tanks into (sort of) heavy tanks.
on that one outlying line, i rolled once ... looking for tank/fighter/bazooka/guerilla, and got something else.
should i do it again? that associates money with the rng and a strong motivation, and my interest went in the trash.
i backed up a bit to reconsider what's going on....
people will certainly make mistakes with money, and that puts an odious smell in my game.
you can't say they are unaware ... the icon is a *die* ... the symbol of gambling.
they must have consulted legal counsel and are safe from further formal sanction (after previous fines)
... but we shall shame them for this.
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TinSoldier
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So it seems to me the core of this confusion comes from the belief that re-rolling is a loot box. While there is an element of randomness when you re-roll an item, the cost is not to acquire something that you don't already have - it's just an exchange of benefits.
For your gambling concerns, please consider the following. The results of a re-roll are not tied to any real money payout. Crowns can be obtained from successful defenses, Stags, Expeditions, and from video rewards in some locations. Re-rolling isn’t directly tied to spending paid-only Crowns.
The team did want to add an element that the community requested, and in so is a closed system where A.) no additional benefits are gained (only different benefits) and B.) there's not a way to "cash out" your crowns, preventing the overall nature of gambling.
Thank you for concerns - always happy to clear up misconceptions!
For your gambling concerns, please consider the following. The results of a re-roll are not tied to any real money payout. Crowns can be obtained from successful defenses, Stags, Expeditions, and from video rewards in some locations. Re-rolling isn’t directly tied to spending paid-only Crowns.
The team did want to add an element that the community requested, and in so is a closed system where A.) no additional benefits are gained (only different benefits) and B.) there's not a way to "cash out" your crowns, preventing the overall nature of gambling.
Thank you for concerns - always happy to clear up misconceptions!
Manifesto
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Great post btw.
The first point: never going to happen. A quick 100 crowns here, 100 crowns there, who's going to miss them? There's always 100 or so crowns by watching videos or a quick 100 (per day) at the crown dock. It's only a small price to pay, right?
Initially, l thought there would be one re-roll per artifact, and it would be free. For this multi-roll option it's so easy to get more crowns, at least Nexon hopes so. This is either very irresponsible or brilliant marketing. You decide which.
The 2nd point: removing it would not be in the best interest of one of the parties you mentioned.
It's here to stay.
Tinsoldier just make the cost 1 million ingame gold and all is fine, but no it has to be crowns and you dare to say it is not directly connected to money. To me it all looks half criminal what you guys are doing. Hope you realize this one day.
skychan
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Well then everyone who has an Apple phone should probably start letting them know as this DOES fit into the apple definition of a loot box. There is a reward, and it can be gained by spending real money which makes it gambling. Therefore odds do need to be presented to the players. If you try to claim that trading out a 1% base bonus for an 11% base bonus is not an improvement but just a 'trade' of like for like you are not fooling anyone. TinSoldier
skychan
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11% vs 1% base bonus IS a benefit. Or another way of simply stating it is that before I spent money on crowns used to reroll I did not have a +11% heavy tank attack bonus, after spending money on crowns I did. I have gained something I did not previously have, it was at random and it cost money.
This makes it for purchase. TinSoldier you should probably let your corporate bosses know this will fall under Apple and China's prohibitions.
This makes it for purchase. TinSoldier you should probably let your corporate bosses know this will fall under Apple and China's prohibitions.
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the concern: a injured person who has purchased crowns might use them with a tainted motivation to improve a museum item ....
... but has to 'beat' an RNG.
true it's not formal gambling but it's close enough in conduct and negative results to discuss, based on intensity of attachment.
the ethical concern is the social contract to protect gambling addicted people just as we don't drink beer with alcoholics.
i've seen cheap drama here; this isn't cheap drama. this could trigger negative real-life conduct.
if some of us are more insistent ... perhaps we are the ones who have observed such injury.
easy fun fix that solves the ethical dilemna: one reroll per item.
i'd use it on everything useful, instead of perfecting the absolute best items.
i'm sad that this issue arose by the nexxon team really trying to incorporate user suggestions.
i don't want to dissuade that behavior; there are excellent player ideas that deserve attention.
... but has to 'beat' an RNG.
true it's not formal gambling but it's close enough in conduct and negative results to discuss, based on intensity of attachment.
the ethical concern is the social contract to protect gambling addicted people just as we don't drink beer with alcoholics.
i've seen cheap drama here; this isn't cheap drama. this could trigger negative real-life conduct.
if some of us are more insistent ... perhaps we are the ones who have observed such injury.
easy fun fix that solves the ethical dilemna: one reroll per item.
i'd use it on everything useful, instead of perfecting the absolute best items.
i'm sad that this issue arose by the nexxon team really trying to incorporate user suggestions.
i don't want to dissuade that behavior; there are excellent player ideas that deserve attention.
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my best weapon has 2 lines of 'heavy cavalry damage' and 2 of 'heavy cavalry hitpoints' ... i have never seen 3 of anything on one item. i think pckrn is correct. so re-rolling the last slot *can't* generate a tank bonus, which is good information.
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The Borg
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I understood the re-rolling feature to simply be a changing of the number value on a single bonus type. I tried rolling a heavy tank hit point stat and sure enough it adjusted the numerical value - totally fine by me.
Next.... I made an attempt at my most valuable looting artifact and it changed the bonus type AND numerical value. Went from 15% all resources looted to air defense bonus....
Would have been nice to have Nexon clarify what things actually change in the effort. Sent a support ticket asking them to revert it back.
Hope they will make the right move and keep a $100/month customer. I know that pales in comparison to some but it adds up after nearly 3 years.
Next.... I made an attempt at my most valuable looting artifact and it changed the bonus type AND numerical value. Went from 15% all resources looted to air defense bonus....
Would have been nice to have Nexon clarify what things actually change in the effort. Sent a support ticket asking them to revert it back.
Hope they will make the right move and keep a $100/month customer. I know that pales in comparison to some but it adds up after nearly 3 years.
in the upper-left corner of the museum there is a new '?' button with the museum rules.
the item 're-rolling benefits' describes that behavior, and the bearded tutorial-man pointed it out when you updated.
i hope you get your way, but you might not; regrets fellow player.
the item 're-rolling benefits' describes that behavior, and the bearded tutorial-man pointed it out when you updated.
i hope you get your way, but you might not; regrets fellow player.
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The Borg
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Quoting the help guide “...only the percent bonus on the benefit will change when a benefit is replaced.”
very poor verbiage. To me that says numerical values will be changed. Shukra, you’re absolutely right there is a guide (this is not directed toward you but toward Nexon).
maybe a warning like “an existing benefit can be wiped or lost - not just the numbers”.
Rant over... do the right thing Nexon and restore my artifact!
I didn’t even ask for my crowns back in the message to customer support.
best of luck to anyone reading this with your rolling options. I do hope you get lucky with the outcomes
very poor verbiage. To me that says numerical values will be changed. Shukra, you’re absolutely right there is a guide (this is not directed toward you but toward Nexon).
maybe a warning like “an existing benefit can be wiped or lost - not just the numbers”.
Rant over... do the right thing Nexon and restore my artifact!
I didn’t even ask for my crowns back in the message to customer support.
best of luck to anyone reading this with your rolling options. I do hope you get lucky with the outcomes
TinSoldier thanks for the response. I am surprised you characterize the post as a misconception/ confusion. There is no misconception here, with this specific feature Nexon has shifted a war and strategy game to something much more akin to gambling such as slots. This is a very dangerous precedent and a slippery slope Nexon is going down: spin the dice for a better artefact, spin the dice for a better troop card, spin the dice for a faster upgrade, etc
To your specific points:
- you characterize the re-roll/ dice feature as an exchange of benefits (!). If I have to guess, I would say that is a legal counsel input into this response, lets be real, the exchange of benefits is players pay Nexon and roll a dice where they may or may not get a benefit (we can debate the probabilities of players getting a benefit, I would say they are skewed in favour of the house/ Nexon but that's not the main issue). Again, it is the reroll randomness that is the issue here, with unclear and undisclosed odds and costs and no controls to limit the number of dice/ spins that is my main issue here.
To your specific points:
- you characterize the re-roll/ dice feature as an exchange of benefits (!). If I have to guess, I would say that is a legal counsel input into this response, lets be real, the exchange of benefits is players pay Nexon and roll a dice where they may or may not get a benefit (we can debate the probabilities of players getting a benefit, I would say they are skewed in favour of the house/ Nexon but that's not the main issue). Again, it is the reroll randomness that is the issue here, with unclear and undisclosed odds and costs and no controls to limit the number of dice/ spins that is my main issue here.
- no real money payout - the issue I described is not about payout, it is about pay in! Again I am disappointed at how Nexon choses to characterize this randomness/ dice roll. What I am concerned about is Nexon pushing players to get hooked up into rolling the dice numerous times in the hope of improving a myriad of artefacts (categories, percentages, etc) that now seem to be integral part of the game. The situation I am concerned about is Nexon through this feature pushing players to spend unintended and unsustainable amounts in game, without proper information and controls. It is not a situation of a player doing a few rolls here and there, it is a situation of a player being compelled to do hundreds of rolls for that extra edge in game. This is particularly a concern given the age of some of the player community for this game.
- source of crowns for re-rolls not being real money - this again is Nexon not acknowledging a problem or concern. While it is factually correct that crowns can be obtained via stag hunting (6 cr/ stag) or video ads (usually 5/ cr ad, sometimes but much less often higher crowns) or expeditions (I personally dont believe I have come across it, but may be a feature of the game), that is in no way the main source of crowns players use or will use for re-rolls (given at present 1 single reroll costs 100cr, but this is not a dice roll pricing post). Again, I am not concerned about someone hunting stags or watching videos for 1-2 weeks to do 1 single reroll, the situation I am concerned about is players rolling the dice for 50-100 times or more in one go, with a gambling like type of behaviours or attitude and with the associated negative consequences (over spending in excess of what is reasonable or affordable for some of such players). I saw you are communicating this point in some other channels (discord), factually point is correct (hunting a stag does provide 6 free crowns!), but is more of a form over substance given the vast majority of the crowns used for this re-rolls will actually be purchased crowns (or "real money pay ins" to use same terminology). Nexon should be open and acknowledge this upfront.
- benefits to the community to improve a line item - I saw a number of posts of how good this feature is to help improve a hard earned artefact elsewhere. That's not the situation I am concerned about, is not a player working diligently to improve a line item in an artefact, its the push by Nexon to monetize a player weakness and encourage a roll the dice attitude towards. I have no issue about Nexon offering a feature where players can pay x$ to choose 1 specific element of an artefact to improve/ change into something else and pay for it accordingly. This is no different to any other in game purchase such as troop cards or time or anything else.
- closed circuit with no additional benefit (just different one) and no ability to cash out - I agree with you here, money flows only one way in this equation, players forced/ encouraged/ tempted to roll the dice and pay up and Nexon to cash in! This together with the lack of disclosure, information and controls makes this issue arguably worse than online gambling offers (dice, slots, rerolls or whatever else they are called).
Overall, I am very disappointed at Nexon position, personally find this position not in line with responsible gaming (at least not my understanding of it), I think introducing the randomness element shifts the game from a strategy game into more of an online gambling offering. The direction and precedent Nexon is setting is dangerous and a slippery slope and I personally think it is wrong for online games, and not something I want to be part of.
Accordingly, I will be transitioning out of this game in short order. I have been a paying player of this game for few years now, but enough is enough. I will step away from this and other Nexon games (current or future) specifically for Nexon refusing to acknowledge this as an issue or do something about it (proper disclosure, remove randomness just charge a clearly disclosed amount for each of the artefact lines, input some controls to avoid addictive dice spinning behaviour, etc),
I also hope over time the community is able to provide to Nexon management further serious and quality feedback on this topic and Nexon to be more reflective and acknowledging of this issue, which in my view is or could be serious and have negative long term impact on the game and the player community.
- source of crowns for re-rolls not being real money - this again is Nexon not acknowledging a problem or concern. While it is factually correct that crowns can be obtained via stag hunting (6 cr/ stag) or video ads (usually 5/ cr ad, sometimes but much less often higher crowns) or expeditions (I personally dont believe I have come across it, but may be a feature of the game), that is in no way the main source of crowns players use or will use for re-rolls (given at present 1 single reroll costs 100cr, but this is not a dice roll pricing post). Again, I am not concerned about someone hunting stags or watching videos for 1-2 weeks to do 1 single reroll, the situation I am concerned about is players rolling the dice for 50-100 times or more in one go, with a gambling like type of behaviours or attitude and with the associated negative consequences (over spending in excess of what is reasonable or affordable for some of such players). I saw you are communicating this point in some other channels (discord), factually point is correct (hunting a stag does provide 6 free crowns!), but is more of a form over substance given the vast majority of the crowns used for this re-rolls will actually be purchased crowns (or "real money pay ins" to use same terminology). Nexon should be open and acknowledge this upfront.
- benefits to the community to improve a line item - I saw a number of posts of how good this feature is to help improve a hard earned artefact elsewhere. That's not the situation I am concerned about, is not a player working diligently to improve a line item in an artefact, its the push by Nexon to monetize a player weakness and encourage a roll the dice attitude towards. I have no issue about Nexon offering a feature where players can pay x$ to choose 1 specific element of an artefact to improve/ change into something else and pay for it accordingly. This is no different to any other in game purchase such as troop cards or time or anything else.
- closed circuit with no additional benefit (just different one) and no ability to cash out - I agree with you here, money flows only one way in this equation, players forced/ encouraged/ tempted to roll the dice and pay up and Nexon to cash in! This together with the lack of disclosure, information and controls makes this issue arguably worse than online gambling offers (dice, slots, rerolls or whatever else they are called).
Overall, I am very disappointed at Nexon position, personally find this position not in line with responsible gaming (at least not my understanding of it), I think introducing the randomness element shifts the game from a strategy game into more of an online gambling offering. The direction and precedent Nexon is setting is dangerous and a slippery slope and I personally think it is wrong for online games, and not something I want to be part of.
Accordingly, I will be transitioning out of this game in short order. I have been a paying player of this game for few years now, but enough is enough. I will step away from this and other Nexon games (current or future) specifically for Nexon refusing to acknowledge this as an issue or do something about it (proper disclosure, remove randomness just charge a clearly disclosed amount for each of the artefact lines, input some controls to avoid addictive dice spinning behaviour, etc),
I also hope over time the community is able to provide to Nexon management further serious and quality feedback on this topic and Nexon to be more reflective and acknowledging of this issue, which in my view is or could be serious and have negative long term impact on the game and the player community.
