Big Huge Games - Questions and Answers: Sandbagging/Match Making

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Nb4powerup

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UPDATE: Thanks for everyone for joining in! There were some amazing questions. For now, our hour has ended but the team will continue to answer now through to next week. As such, we're closing the thread.

Thanks again!




Hello all,

Welcome to our BHG question and answers session. Please keep in mind that while our goal is to answer as many questions as we can, some question may not receive an answer. We also ask that you try to keep questions related to the topic at hand.
 
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S_How

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8 of our last 10 wars have been against teams that mix high end atomics, with undeveloped accounts to intentionally manipulate the matchmaking algorithm you use. It creates a scenario where a team has significantly more power, both offense and defense, than their opponent. We dont know war weight formulas, which is ok, so all we have to go off of are levels, but those can be a fairly good guide. In many of our wars, if you take our average level, and compare it with the opponents average level after removing their few (usually 10-25% of roster) undeveloped accounts, we are disadvantaged by 35 or more levels. Absolutely insurmountable odds. And it now happens almost every single war. I encourage you to look at our war history to see the effect it is having.

I dont want to say the word 'sandbag' because I feel the community and the developers have different definitions of them. However, in 100% of the examples in our war history, as you can look at, these undeveloped accounts never make hits, and even if they did they only exist because the matchmaking system is so vulnerable to this strategy, and they almost never existed before glory became the only leaderboard alliances have. Even a 10% (2-3 accounts in a 20-30 person war) have been shown to completely skew a match. None of these accounts have been part of a 'diverse team'.

Because our strategy has been to take our best, most prepared members to war, it has hurt us. Instead of taking our best, a better strategy would be to hold great people out, and instead take an iron age account I created yesterday to war. It is SIGNIFICANTLY more advantageous for a team to do this. The supposed penalties put in a few months ago are either so insignificant they cannot be noticed, or they have been taken out entirely. We often face teams in the top 50 who can take hundreds of glory from us with a 35+ level advantage and a 20%+ undeveloped account mix.

This problem will only become even worse, as the maximum strength of players increases, the reduction influence of undeveloped accounts will continue to grow and grow, allowing people to match easier and easier opponents as you develop new content.

With this context, I have the following questions

1) Do you feel that the strategy of taking undeveloped accounts that lower war weight to create a significant mismatch on the top end, is acceptable and should be rewarded more than a team starting their most capable players? If yes, thank you for helping us see the future of the game. If not,

2) How, and when, do you plan on addressing this problem? We have heard too many times "We dont want the game played like this, we are constantly monitoring and trying to improve, etc. The fact remains that no material action has been taken in 9 months and the problem unbelievably continues to grow.

3) If you take action, how will you both protect the ability of the best heavyweight teams to remain at the top of a leaderboard, but in a way that doesnt encourage teams to drop war weight artificially which allows them to ensure they have no real competition in their wars. Said in other words, how will you encourage peers to battle each other rather than teams vastly different in strength, while still giving the best heaviest and strongest teams the ability to rightfully be on top of a leaderboard.

Finally, if possible, a few great suggestions have been given by the community, I would like to know if you have considered them, and what flaws you see to them:

Option A: Gail has suggested giving every base a potential of 10* in defenses, meaning all bases can be hit twice, and every hit will matter....you cant just load a bottom half of your roster with undeveloped accounts that simply dont matter on offense or defense.

Option B: Provide an age range which can be in wars (If you have atomics, you cant take lower than industrial, etc). Although this may in some cases exclude some people on a team from war, I would argue if there are indeed real instances of iron ages learning the game, having them mixed with atomics in war is about the worse experience you'd ever give a person.

Option C: Dont have the bottom ~25% of a roster count for matchmaking reasons.

These are just ideas I thought were fairly good, Im sure none are perfect, but literally anything would be better than the current system for my team, which has ruined the game for us.
 

Europeos

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It would be interesting to have more information on matchmaking, like how alliances' weight is calculated exactly, wha the range of possible matches is, is matchmaking fixed or dynamic (some people have mentioned a matchmaking expansion every 7 minutes), how glory is calculated, how penalties work..
 

Quovatis

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1) Why did the last letter to the community basically say this was "fixed"? This is demonstrably untrue. How does BHG define a "sandbagging alliance"?

2) How is inter-alliance war ranking done? That is, what determines who is the #1 player vs the #15 player inside a war? It's definitely not strength of defense/offense/upgrades, as I've seen totally maxed players be ranked far below a lvl 200 player.

3) Do university upgrades count in match-making?
 
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G

Guest

Guest
Wow!
Thank you for the well thought out set of questions!

We do agree that the definition of sandbagging does vary from player to player and even from War to War. We also agree that sandbagging is a problem, and we want to address it.

The largest problem that we see is bringing inactive low-Age accounts to War (in order to drop matchmaking weight). We don't want to punish Alliances that bring varied Age players to War simply because they look like they may be sandbagging. If players of all Ages are participating and carry out attacks they should not be punished.

The main solution we are looking into is changing matchmaking so that varied Age Alliances are more constantly matched up to other varied Age Alliances. We would like to handle this delicately, in order to not blow matchmaking times out of the water.
 
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Nb4powerup

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Hi Quovatis,

Thanks for the questions and for being a part of this discussion. For your question, 'Do university upgrades count in match-making' - Yes, they do.
 
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Christopher-Outlaws!!

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Nb4powerup commented
Today, 10:14 AM
Hi Quovatis,

Thanks for the questions and for being a part of this discussion. For your question, 'Do university upgrades count in match-making' - Yes, they do.
Last edited by Nb4powerup; Today, 10:16 AM.

To what extent do University Upgrades count? is it 90% 10% 2%? What are the other factors included in matchmaking and their rankings? But more pressingly I would like to see S_How s comments and questions addressed.
 

Prodigal Clint

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If individual players War ranks compose and create a teams "war rank"? How do rankings like my following example happen? And how do they influence the "teams war rank"? Lastly, how does it influence matchmaking?
 

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snowleopard

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We were recently matched against a top alliance in a 25X war where they used 5 iron age bases and rest 20 were atomic age. Our number 1 was a match for their number 15.
You guys say that sandbagging and matchmaking has been resolved or you are addressing it. However, the reality is that it is simply not resolved. Are you guys taking any major steps to curb the matchmaking or sandbagging disparity?
 
G

Guest

Guest
Option A: We considered this, but it becomes extremely punishing if people crash or lose connection during War battles. The current system allows for some leeway here.

Option B: We also considered this, but we think this is an awkward fix that hurts more casual players. We think players should be able to engage in Wars with their friends if they want to, regardless of their Age.

Option C: That is a good idea, and it is actually how we calculate Glory (which is a separate calculation from matchmaking). This is something we’ve discussed internally and is something we’re considering.
 

Nb4powerup

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Hi! You may have to refresh the page a few times, but a reply has already been posted.
 

Which

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I think reworking the whole matchmaking algorithm could be disastrous as it may or may not lead to long queue times.. however, sandbagging needs to be addressed.

1) Restrict age (rosters with AA players can only bring up to IA allies)
2) Scale the glory penalty (to single digits) when there is a large (TBD) level gap between the top player vs the lowest level player
 

Master Contrail Program

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Is there any chance of having a war options checklist before beginning a search? Things like a minimum/maximum age. Whether troop cards/donations/tactics/mercs will be allowed, etc.. I realize this will make matchmaking take longer in some cases, but I figure some alliances may find it worth the wait to ameliorate some of the randomness inherent in the current system

Instead of just having a single leaderboard for the thousands of alliances out there is there a chance we may see alliance leagues, similar to the pvp ones?
 

Scuba

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Has there been any thought into alliance leagues?
This I think would eliminate 'sandbagging' as you would be matched against opponents of similar strength more often being that you would be matched on glory points or something similar.
it would also stop my alliance 13'200 glory points being matched constantly against 20'000+ glory points.
i understand some teams would drop down in a glory league system for not being all maxed at AA and unable to compete but the top teams would be at the top.
 

Veldan

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I just wanted to say that our alliance's matchmaking times are typically of the order of 5 minutes, so I doubt those times are a problem... we'd gladly wait a little longer for a decent matchup. Sometimes when I start a war it's already planning day before my base is even loaded.
 

GailWho

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Since sandbagging has been addressed by S_how very thouroughly I want to ask something that has bugged me for quite a while. As the match is being made, how is the war ranking determined? It seems that the heavier weight maxed out bases, especially in disproportionate mismatches (sandbags or not) are ranked in the middle of a 20v and 25v roster. It is not uncommon to see an AA level 240 base ranked #9 or 10 below Global Age bases in the 190's. How do you determine war ranks and could this be a reason for such terrible mismatches that do not involve sandbags? Are the same prinicles being used in rank used in the actual matchmaking algorithm? If so, is there a way for these maxed bases to mask upgrades (either intentionally or through glitches) so they do not show up when searching? It can't be the selective upgrades because these bases upgrades, both offensively and defensively are much more advanced than the bases above them in actual exp upgrades and in research upgrades as evidenced by tanks spam and unbreakable walls. Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions.
 

Bowmore

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How would you, BHG, grade the current matchmaking system?
1=Awesome, don't need to change anything
2=Decent, works well for most teams, could use a couple tweaks
3=Tolerable, needs some minor improvements
4=Broken, needs some significant changes
5=Awful, needs a complete overhaul
 
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