Not only is the tank upgrade worthless, its actually a nerf. Let me count the ways...troop space increases from 6 to 10. Thats a 66% increase(thats bad). In return u get 77% more dps, 69% more hp, 66% longer training time. So up to this point if it was straight 66% across the board it would be a wash. we do have an 11% increase in dps(for a unit whos dps sucks in general and sucks extra hard vs economy). A 3% increase in hp. Heres where it all falls apart. We have a 100% increase in food train cost. Frequently my food is maxed out. But if i do deplete my storage a unit costing 2x food will slow down the refill. Tanks are more vulnerable to cannons and spike traps. A heavy cav is far more likely to be overkilled by a cannon tower or spike trap. Therefore wasting a % of the cannons dps. Which imediately makes the 3% hp increase of the tank a net negative effective hp. Since tanks, cavalry are the bullet sponges of the game their #1 stat is their hp, or effective hp. Both heavy cav and tanks are past the breaking point of rendering redoubts and mortars useless. So the fact that heavy cav have more models on the field and therefore take more damage from redoubts and mortars is insignificant. And the most damning part for tanks is the fact that they have a range increase from cavalry. This is bad. Cavalry with melee range attack will hug the wall. They will be the closest model to the defenses drawing aggro and performing their bullet sponge duty. Tanks with increased attack range do not in general attack over walls...that would be good. They use their range to attack walls. Which puts the bullet sponge closer to cannons, musketeers and such. So now aoe damage from mortars, redoubts is landing more on the units the tanks are supposed to protect. Or in the worst case scenario it puts fusiliers who still have melee range as closest target so now they draw aggro instead of the tanks. So a tank upgrade fails in the most important way. Their effective hp is lowered. And they function worse to draw aggro. In return u pay 2x food train cost, and gain 11% on their least important stat dps. Anyone see an angle im missing? Because as things stand. Im inclined to leave my army with heavy cav until right before global age release. Since presumabely global age tanks will be enough of an improvement over heavy cav to be worth it. Even if tanks are a nerf. Mostly this just goes to show how poorly bhg understands the function of their units. And how to balance stats on the meta level.
Industrial tank upgrade worthless
- Thread starter dbukalski
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Redgar
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Pretty interesting calculations, dbuk. But do tanks have range or not? In my blacksmith its written 'close combat'. It looks like they tried to avoid tanks spam at any case and this is where it leaded them. Nerfing upgrade is really something new lol ))) but i've seen what 8 tanks can do, it's pretty decent imo
In my defense replays tanks shoot at longer range. So either blacksmith should say range 2. Or they meant to make tanks melee but left them with the extra range by accident. In either case tanks with melee range would be a small nerf. Tanks with increased range suck. The fact that an industrial player did well with 8 tanks has more to do with all the other units getting a good buff. Its possible theres something im missing thats not listed. A dps multiplier vs defenders. Splash damage? Anything?
Redgar
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Yea, I checked the video, there is a range and it may be the price for that. I don't think there is a differense in issue with mortairs because your soldiers get close to the wall anyways and take a hit. Also we may need to calculate e.g. How many shots from IA tower 5 HC or 3 tanks may take just to make it clear, if it's a buff or nerf lol )))
Im gonna assume that relevant info is included. Heavy tanks require a library upgrade to gain splash damage so im not gonna attribute somethig so powerful to standard tanks. That extra range of tanks is a problem no matter how u slice it. Yes regular infantry are up front wether cavalry join them or not. But cavalry mixed with infantry to draw some heat is still being more spongy than hanging back with the archers(exageration). Even if its from an archer tower that starts shooting at cav and will be stuck on that indefinitelt. If mortars do target the cav then the cav being further back with artillery, musketeers means more splash damage from mortar vs tank shots. Plus u have all the different angles of attack. A cavalry thats giving the wall a hug will draw aggro from more defenses at angles. Tanks that hang back will put a wider arc of ur army closer to the other defenses that arent directly ahead.
The ideal scenario is tanks in melee range. Infantry with range 2, archers artillery at 5ish. They had that in enlightenment for a while because infantry were shooting over walls. Give infantry the range back but program it so they dont have los through walls. Which is actually what im seeing from tanks now
Redgar
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Okay, so my cannon tower upgrade says it's going to be 2521 + 1433 in IA = 3954 dmg per second, but it's with +22% towers blessing now. How often this babe shoots? Let's take 1 shot per 3 seconds? Then it's 11862 dmg per shot. 5 british HC Hp with versailles and no buffs x 7776 HP, tank 13200. So the cannon will kill HC in 5 shots and all the tanks in 6 shots. Lol. If cannon shoots 1 time per 2 seconds than it does 7908 dmg per shot. Still kills 5 HC in 5 shots and tanks in 6 shots. But it may be kinda different for french and if you remove 22% of towers blessing
you could make the case that tanks will survive longer under a cannon tower. since cannon towers only fire once every ~2 sec, tanks are a 4-shot kill for cannon towers (not considering tower blessing) at ~15,000 hp (I'm Greek with Versailles, though). my EA hc are a 2-shot kill with 9,000 hp. in the 3-tank-vs-5-hc scenario, the tanks have negligibly more hp, but may survive ~4 seconds longer (24 seconds vs. 20), or 20% longer. all academic, though. ...however, more practically, in the group of fewer tanks, the same one is more likely to be targeted 2, 3, or 4 times before the tower goes down. in the larger group of hc, maybe the damage gets more spread out? who knows. considering the training time and cost increase, I'd come down on the side of not upgrading. I can (and do) spread the 5 hc around more too on initial deployment, drawing fire from more defensive emplacements at once. another pro for the more-hc argument.
Redgar
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Yes, this HP balance is made in range of error and situation on the field/buffs, nations, etc. add to that that 5 HC will gain HP faster from healers, but slower from tactics. So the only clear buff on tanks is range which has doubtful effect for this type of unit.
...so the answer may range from marginally better to actually being worse, depending on choice of nation. hmph.
Brown Bear
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Wait, your saying that tanks are better or worse than hc, because their weakness is supposed to be cannon towers. This shouldn't make tanks unusable, just like ballistas don't make hc unusable. Not understanding the "numbers breakdown" if anything more tanks should mean greater firepower, so ballista scan be destroyed quickly. And what about heavy tanks, which have massive health and a thousand damage? You can bring 5 per raid (25 troop space)
Brown Bear
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An redgers post says buffed towers.. I thought I was the only person who used those blessings...
I wasnt quite sure what u were trying to do there redgar so im gonna redo the numbers. 3954 damage from cannon tower with blessig. French tank is 14256 cavalry is 8424. It takes 3 shots to kill a cav, 4 shots to kill a tank. Which means the tank takes up 66% more space in ur army but only survives 33% longer versus a cannon. Those numbers can change depending on other bonuses u can stack on. But that example shows how overkill shots are wasted more on cavalry. While the tank suffers more to big shots from cannon. So overall tanks have less ehp(effective hp) than cavalry.
I was able to do the tests for cavalry vs tank dps...tanks have that 11% more dps. No special multipliers vs defense or defenders. No splash damage. But their performance on the field was more than what 11% would indicate. The reason they perform better in terms of dps is because they fire slower than cavalry. Which can lead to overkill. The tank shoots like 1 every 3 seconds. Cav are like 1 every second. But more often what ull see is a tank moving forward. Then shoot 1 shot that does 5x damage of a cavalry attack. Then it takes 3 seconds to recharge the next attack but the defense building is destroyed so while their moving towards next building their charging up next attack. When they get there the building dies immediately. So the tanks have a high alpha strike. And then 11% more dps. Some of the 11% will be lost in overkill losses. So in summary the tanks perform much better vs defense buildings. No gain vs defenders or walls. And lose a lot in ehp and performing as an aggro tank
Why do tanks heal faster from tactics? A tactic will heal 4% x 5 cav x 8424hp ...or 4% x 3 tanks x 14300hp. Thats 1684hp cav vs 1716hp so basically the same for tactic and supply cart. Or more specifically. 3% more healing as i mentioned earlier the tanks do have slightly more hp to troop space raio
