So what's the math on demolition tactic in regards to only Uni and Lib bonuses?

JMoney

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As far as I know at the moment. Right now all you need is about +2 of DaVinci's hp research on a mortar to make them unable to be killed by a demolition tactic one age ahead of them. However with Suleiman's uni tech research you can get demolition tactic a 10% damage buff. Is there a point where Suleiman's demolition buff makes it so that it can destroy mortars of an age lower thanks to DaVinci buffs? Or is it just better to assume that in a couple of months everyone will have DaVinci mortar hp >+2 levels of research and say goodbye to demolition tactic being used ever again? Already I'm finding that I can't kill enlightenment age mortars with one of my industrial age demolition tactic due to people having caught on to how DaVinci's hp on mortars buff being ridiculous. Almost makes me wish that Suleiman's demolition tactic research wasn't stuck behind atleast 10 levels of research on mortars (the troops).

I'd figure that since DaVinci's gives a whopping 30% more hp while Sully's is just a 10% increase it might not.

Oh also when I mean "Lib" I mean Library. Couldn't make a title long enough to fit the name there, sorry.
 
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maggiepie

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Is there a point where Suleiman's demolition buff makes it so that it can destroy mortars of an age lower thanks to DaVinci buffs?

No; you'll need 2 demos (regardless of buffs) to take down the mortar (w/ library and uni buffs).
 

JMoney

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Can't really come to a conclusion without the numbers to see first. Anyone know the hp values of a mortar and demolition tactic?

Looking at the wiki at least I can pull some hp values off mortars. So let's see. (Also the guys on the wiki have the hp values wrong for the IA and Global Age mortar's original hp. Someone forgot the first 10% hp library tech bonus.)

Demolition tactic with its tactics damage bonus off library gets a 10% additional damage bonus. So at lvl 3 (Industrial) it will do 2000 damage normally, 2,200 damage with the library tech, and then 2,400 damage with the additional 10% bonus off Suleiman if my math is correct.

Now mortars without any blessings, university, or embassy bonuses get a 20% hp increase off library. So an Enlightenment age mortar that is one age down from IA will have 1,820 natural hp, and 2184 hp with library bonuses.

So as we can see here off IA alone if you have only library tech bonus then demolition will deal the about 20 damage more necessary to kill an EA upgraded mortar that's hp isn't being any more influenced by other hp multipliers.

Now WITH university hp multipliers we will have an EA mortar that will have hp increase increments of:

lvl 1 DaVinci = 23% = 2238.6 (If the math is sound then that means just even having one lvl of hp research makes it so 2200 damage demolition cannot kill an ea mortar, this makes it so even 1! point into DaVinci's hp research is a value point!)
lvl 2 DaVinci = 26% = 2293.2
lvl 3 DaVinci = 29% = 2347.8
lvl 4 DaVinci = 32% = 2402.4 ***
lvl 5 DaVinci = 35% = 2457
lvl 6 DaVinci = 38% = 2511.6
lvl 7 DaVinci = 41% = 2566.2
lvl 8 DaVinci = 44% = 2620.8
lvl 9 DaVinci = 47% = 2675.4
lvl 10 DaVinci = 50% more hp! = 2730

Now let's look at the damage increase increment of IA demolition with Suleiman's bonus:

lvl 1 Sully = 11% = 2222 (Can't even kill a lvl 1 DaVinci buffed mortar. DaVinci lvl 1 hp looks more and more like a mega value point.)
lvl 2 Sully = 12% = 2244 (Can now kill lvl 1 DaVinci buffed mortar (Only))
lvl 3 Sully = 13% = 2266 (Still can't kill lvl 2.)
lvl 4 Sully = 14% = 2288 (Still can't kill lvl 2.)
lvl 5 Sully = 15% = 2310 (Can now kill lvl 2 DaVinci mortar.)
lvl 6 Sully = 16% = 2332
lvl 7 Sully = 17% = 2354 (Kills lvl 3.)
lvl 8 Sully = 18% = 2376
lvl 9 Sully = 19% = 2398
lvl 19 Sully = 20% = 2400 ***

The conclusion just based of IA demolition to an Enlightenment age's mortar is that at lvl 4's DaVinci research point that a lvl 10 Suleiman and library buffed Demolition tactic can never kill a mortar in one tactic without Mongols, and since mongols is war only this means that in matchmaking your mortars gain an advantage against people who use that tactic in raids. EA bases still get crushed under air troops though.

I'm sure this information would be more interesting to the folk at global age, but considering a current age demolition against a current age mortar has never been able to destroy a mortar the math isn't particularly important to know. Mongols (and by effect Egyptians as a counter if you see your enemies going for them) seems like the necessity to ever think about using Demolition to kill mortars in a future where everyone has atleast lvl 5 DaVinci hp% increase. I'm sure there is more math that can be done on Mongols hp increase against a mortar buffed by uni and or egyptians. I think I will just take a look at the numbers and see what the results are.

Global Age natural Mortar building hp = 2296.6
With library 20% = 2756
With lvl10 DaVinci = 3444.9 hp

Global Age natural Demolition tactic damage = 2330
With library 10% = 2,563
With lvl10 Sully = 2796 damage

About 648 more hp than the tactic's damage.
You global age guys might as well invest in more sabotage or defense tactic. Of interesting note the 2796 damage means you can only kill an IA mortar if it has less than DaVinci's lvl 4 hp research. As IA mortar's hp at lvl 4 DaVinci + Library hp bonus = 2798.4 hp.

If anything though the real conclusion here has been that having atleast lvl 4 DaVinci research on hp makes your mortars have enough hp to essentially counter act a demolition tactic up to the current game's patch metagame as of August 21st, 2016. Suleiman or not, sans Mongols or Egyptians matchups.

You won't even know either. But given that lvl 4 hp research doesn't take much than a month (about ten or more days at the least) I'd say to assume everyone in about a month or two from now will have it and not to invest in bringing along a demolition unless you have Mongols coalition.
 
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JMoney

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However an interesting look shows that at IA a Demolition tactic with Suleiman's Demolition research at lvl 10 and the library bonus giving Demolition tactic 2400 hp damage actually puts the IA Anti-Tank Tower at 100 hp since it has 2500 hp. Enough to be sniped by an air unit with ease. Or with Mongols to be killed outright. What this means for someone is that you can run 4 demolition tactics with Suleiman research maxed out and be able to kill every IA Anti-Tank Tower in an IA base.

Which means that without Anti-Tank Towers to stop tanks a base's defenses pretty much gets crushed by Tanks/Heavy Tanks.


This is sans Egyptians or Mongols. Which once again with Mongols you don't even need air units to put in the last hit. Given that getting the hp research for Anti-Tank Towers will take people that aren't crowing for it a long, long, long time to get that means there is some value in going for Sully's Demolition research. Especially if you're someone like a Roman or German player who can get more use out of Heavy Tanks.
 
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Navalis

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I'm EA and used to do well running with 3 Demos & 1 Sabotage as Romans. I am now in the process of mixing things up for this very reason. All to often I now find improved mortars left hanging by a tread to deal with. (In full disclosure I too have buffed my mortars in the Uni.)
I do like your idea of hitting the Anti-Tank guns and will consider that when I reach the IA horizon.
 

kennynguyen

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Same thing with me. What's a joke NEXON? Have to spend 6mil food to upgrade Demo IA (9 days) + upgrade war academy another 5 mil food (6 days) JUST CAN'T KILL AN EA MORTAR with 4.5 mil gold (5 days) & Uni Davinci lvl 1 100k (1 day)?
 

JMoney

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Gold and Food convert differently. Same reason food is the most abundant resource (let's be honest pretty much every base has atleast 200k food on it at all times in Industrial or Global Age), then gold is the second most, and oil is the least. Still doesn't justify the build time differences but them's the sticks.
 

The Huns

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Is it possible they just want people to use mixed armies and strategy rather than demos and let the troops go?
 

JMoney

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Well coalitions and the tech and uni buffs are definitely capable of changing around the established metagame a bit. I think they are trying to make it so factory troops, especially heavy tanks, can have their impressionable army composition even outside of global age. MK1s should not be underestimated after they get the tech upgrade to give them splash damage. Having about 3 or 4 of them and then having compensating for their huge troop space taking up your other troops with alliance gate troops is quite viable. Atleast in war that is. It's not incredibly sustainable in normal raids.
 
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Old Farmer Bob

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JMoney thanks for the maths crunching. My head just spins with the uni upgrades and this is enlightening . Have subscribed so my old brain can try and understand your workings. Thank gawd I only attack FCs with demos and think they are immune. Now someone pop my bubble 💥 tell me I'm wrong 🤔😁 and wreck my day 😱
 
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